Before I show you all the article I found, I would like to state my comments first.
- Isn’t programmer the incorrect word? Scripter/Developer is more accurate.
- I feel the problem lies with management skills, not the developers.
- PHP developers are exploited 70% of the time, as the demand is not understood by management.
Anyway, that’s just my opinion on the extract below, written by Nitin Vyas, who has apparently “been the show manager for IT companies for over 5 years and has Internet marketing experience of working with fortune 500 companies”.
PHP is no doubt a great language and has helped many people in numerous ways as it is an open source tool and applications made using PHP are generally less costly as compared to other languages. However there is one big issue that most organizations employing PHP programmers face. Not only IT companies, clients are also not restricted to this big problem.
PHP Programmers are unreliable. They cannot be trusted. They cannot be traced and they run away midway. Clients who have outsourced their projects to freelancers through bidding sites are often found howling for their lost time and money.
Even IT companies employing PHP programmers need to be on their toes when they have a PHP team. Because these programmers are short in supply and they know about this they take full advantage of this by not coming on time , taking leaves without informing, working at will and if nothing works threatening to leave the job and in most cases shifting jobs without intimation thereby leaving you in the jungle all alone.
Personally, I have suffered a lot because of these programmers which encouraged me to find a solution for it once and for all. I decided to form a company where I have a team of PHP programmers as partners not employees. It took me time to find trustworthy people but I did succeed. Now, the worries about completion of projects have taken rest as I know my team will work for their own money. I am looking to expand my team and in my team everyone gets some part of money from each project we have. So it has turned into a win-win situation. Now I earn and they earn as well and all the projects we get are delivered on time. We now have programmers who want to join the team as the earning is much more than expected.
Isn’t that just a bit stereotypical? As if as soon as you become a php programmer you automatically become an unreliable person. Geesh, people are people regardless of there skin colour, race, religion, or even what they choose to learn as their profession. :) Sorry I couldn’t resist
all these problems “Because these programmers are short in supply”, i don’t think so… he has managed to find a team of them he states later on in the article! to find a php developer that codes like the last one is difficult though. what with some of us doing it the oop way and others not.
is this the whole article? i’d like to have read the whole thing if it isn’t, but you didn’t link directly to it.
Ye Miguel, I totally agree. There is definitely a stereo-typical view placed upon PHP developers. I am a PHP developer and I could rack up a list of 20 people who I’ve worked for, who will back me up that I am a trustworthy developer. On top of that, I could find another 7 or 8 friends who are PHP developers who could get good references too. It just annoys me that someone would write such an article.
I do agree that PHP developers are rare, BUT the only reason that is the case, is because they are all busy with projects, which purely points out that each and everyone is dedicated, otherwise they’d be accepting and taking on more work, surely?
Sarah – Sorry, I thought I did link directly, here is the link:
http://www.resourceschool.com/Article/PHP-Programmer——A-Headache/108
However, I did copy the entire article, not just an extract. I found it via Digg.
Thanks for your views Migs and Ms Phunkd!
thanks chris, after posting my comment i went and checked out resource school and found the php article quite easily (there’s only one).
Ah ok cool. I’m still annoyed each time I see the header to this post :P
PHP is a programming language. And it IS poor management most of the time. If people spent the time to go through the correct procurement strategies to test each employee on their capabilities it would not be an issue – you can’t expect a web designer or a manager to interview candidates, how are they supposed to test the persons abilities? Especially since PHP is such a new language and lacks much qualification, you should require all candidates to write an entry test – hire a consultant to set it.
Most IT companies employ one or two PHP guys and expect them to be graphic designers, sys admins, tech support etc. etc. etc. and ontop of it all they need to be project managers – get forced to work ridiculous hours because of sales people promising the world in a day without consulting the developer once, and lets not forget, no overtime pay.
PHP developers arent unreliable they just realise when they’re been taken for a ride.
Absolutely, hired as a PHP developer does not mean you can setup networks, install databasing system, design flash intros! That annoys me big time.
I think if you ask any PHP developer whether they have been taken for a ride, each and everyone will have a story to tell.
Knowing PHP does put us above the rest though, so they can tune as much as they like, but they’ll always want us :P
*keeps quiet*
I wouldnt say we … “unreliable”, just volatile …
I have been doing php freelance for about a year now and frankly, i consider myself reliable, somewhat … volatile, but realiable – and yeah working freelance or at home or what ever, you tend to get more “crisis” than most people when you are sick etc. But in a whole … i think that article is bollocks, subjective and close minded.
I think Nitin does have a point though, but I think he argued from only one angle and could have done with looking at things from the other side too though.
Well, I’ve worked with php programmers for years and never found them unreliable. Sure you get the odd person who will let you down, but I usually have the parameters of the job made clear up front, and either pay salary or pay progress payments.
Anyway, I’m looking for two php developers, who are also experienced with MySql, Linux and Unix. Anyhone interested – please contact me at http://www.bizfundi.com/it.htm.
Thanks, CCH
CCH.. perfect opening paragraph, I couldn’t agree more with you. If you state the requirements and terms correctly you won’t have a problem. But all-in-all, at the end of the day, this is like ANY job, it’s unfair to throw it all at PHP developers.
With regards to your job openings, why the requirement for linux and unix?
Shot for popping past!
Hi Chris M
Our WAN and LAN servers run on Unix, and about 50% of our local PC’s in the office run on a Linux.
Cheers!!
Ye, I assumed that was probably the case, but would a PHP developer really need to know those systems? Surely there’s a web server setup?
Well, we need our staff to be multi-skilled, not one dimensional. Why do you ask, are you interested in the position or maybe you have someone to suggest for the position?
The main reason I ask CCH, is because I’ve had this chat on many occasions with other developers and it always comes down to the fact that employers don’t want to just hire a PHP developer, but rather someone who is more than that, but only pay them as a PHP developer. Let me state that I am NOT saying this is your setup or anything, it’s just something we’ve all noticed.
I have worked a number of ‘php development’ jobs, where I was expected to do all sorts of other things, which I should not have been doing, but I was paid strictly as a PHP Developer. I am a PHP developer, I have experience and I feel that I can handle most PHP tasks, however, I have never put my fingers on the keyboard, which controlled a unix or a linux box. I could learn unix or linux fairly easily, as I have read up about it, but my point being that I am a PHP developer, not a unix/linux user.
I would be interested in some more information, perhaps not for me, but I know a number of developers currently looking for jobs, but I refuse to refer them to a ‘php development’ job, when intern they are expected to be 10x more than that, as it gives me a bad name amongst my friends :)
I’m certain that you know exactly where I am coming from. It’s an interesting topic, and I’m glad to be chatting to you about this!
Right – I agree, most people don’t want people who are simply PHP developers, they expect them to also to do development in html, and database development in other languages and a whole host of other things related to doing the script that is to be developed.
In South Africa – it seems we also expect people to have other knowledge and be prepared to do other things related to their field, certainly it is the case in our company.
Hence the information sheet provided when we create the first short list, it gives them far more detail before they even make an appointment, so they can say yay or nay, interested or NAAACH, can’t do that, not in my job description.
So strictly speaking PHP DEVELOPER is the wrong term for what we are looking for.
Take a look at the advert – I fixed to it give more information on what we need and what we are prepared to pay:
http://www.bizfundi.com/it.htm
Have a great holiday this December!
CCH
CCH – that’s awesome, I honestly think that if more employees took time to write down the job requirements, more employees would be happy with the developers they hired – perhaps this is how we can resolve this problem of apparently unreliable developers?
I will pass these details along to the guys I know who are looking for jobs and see what they think. It would be nice to refer someone, I must say.
Thanks for all the chatting and opinions on this topic, it’s been quite interesting!
Have a great Christmas and New Years, hope to see you commenting on my blog about other things sometime in the near future :)
I have always found PHP developers to be trustworthy. In fact i am desperate need for a senior PHP developer. So anyone out there who has PHP development skills, Linux, ZEND, Mysql experience please contact me urgently on 083 633 4105
Hi Rodney, it’s nice to hear from someone who appreciates PHP developers!
Drop me an email via my contact form about the position and I will do a blog post specifically about it for you :)
I am a financial website owner and my developer designed, created, developed (finding it difficult to describe)my website and database at a price very few will earn in a lifetime? I am looking for another PHP, MSQL developer to maintain my site and integrate financial reports and applications in order for my clients to be able to capture applications from anywhere in South Africa, generate the completed forms and prepare them for submission to banking institutions as I deal with various financial institutions. I am close to jumping of a cliff, as my young developer is more than unreliable. I tried to live with this for a long time, but right now I find it impossible to justify bad performance, incompetence and plainly put a “slapgat: with anything thinkable! Pray for him, is all I can ask for!
Sounds like an interesting opportunity Vrede K, how about you drop me an email and we can take a look at this.. ?
Hi Chris
Read your article about PHP programmers. My question is where do you find great
programmers who are tuned into web standards?
I’m looking for someone who can help me with the setup and maintenance of our
PHP/MySQL websites. We build quite high-end informational sites for clients
such as the Nelson Mandela Foundation, Travelex, 46664, etc.
Don’t know where to start looking. Do you have some personal references based
in Johannesburg (or someone who might want to move to JHB ;>)?
Most PHP Developers, like myself, are aware of web standards, but the problem is actually finding a developer who is reliable and doesn’t want to charge an arm and a leg.
I’ve worked on many projects before which start on one thing and then lead to another and developers get tired of being pushed and pulled and ultimately not making much money, hence the massive salary demands.
I’m also looking to hire a PHP developer, so unfortunately I can’t get my leads away :/
I think we need an SA version of authenticjobs.com. I’m disillusioned with biz-community, etc, they are all too general and the applicants are not that great.
I think there’s just a general lack of resources down here in South Africa to be honest, the best bet is to hire a student who has some programming knowledge and train him/her up..
Apart from that, you need big bucks! I know that I would not work in house as a senior developer ever again, and if pushed to do so, I wouldn’t settle for less than R35,000/month which is outside 80% of companies budgets in my opinion.
Working as a developer these days is madness, you’re thrown ton after ton after ton of things to do and expected to deliver miracles on a daily basis, the stress isn’t worth it.
What do you reckon?
Yes. Generally employers have no idea how complex programming is, or what it’s worth. I think people out there reckon we open a program like Photoshop or Word and draw pretty pictures/connect the dots.
Ok, so basically we’ve either got to head hunt for probably R35k , or hire a junior who’s willing to learn.
Ok, next question, which universities/technikons have better than average graduates in this field?
Agreed, the number of times I’ve been asked to create advanced forms which require fairly dynamic arrays and the client/boss assumes that it’s as simple as drawing up an Excel Spreadsheet, grrr!
I would do this – Hire one rockstar developer, but make sure he has good communication skills, then hire one or two juniors and have them learn from him/her – that way, you’ll know that in a few months to come that your juniors will be practicing what is best and will be learning from someone with a great deal of experience.
Personally, I would go with someone from Cape Peninsula University of Cape Town (CPUT, old Cape Tech). I studied at UCT for 2 yrs and then moved to CPUT and have to admit that the hands on skills from students at CPUT are far greater than UCT. Alternatively, there are other places such as CTI which also ‘offer’ students with decent hands on skills, but I would stick to CPUT personally.
It’s such a big mission unfortunately, getting a decent team together is near impossible. I would also not focus only on salaries, perhaps provide a good, comfortable environment. Other way of doing this, is hiring staff at good industry salaries and allowing them to work 4 days a week. If they are good, they’ll get through all the work in 4 days easily – I know, I’ve been there before, I’ve sat around for hours as I’m a speedy developer – I could have only dreampt to work a 4 day week, it would have made me work harder as well as work for a smaller salary.
The world is changing, developers are web junkies are becoming very aware to how demanding they can be, rather match the needs, give them a great environment and you’ll probably see that this is the solution.
Web 2.0 employment :)
Thanks for the advice on the institutions to look out for on the CVs. I like the rockstar-apprentice approach!
4-day week? I think there was a good article on alistapart about that… I think it’s a good topic for a blog post.
Carlsonified (I think that’s the companies name) offers their employees 4 day weeks and they are a company of only rockstars for it!
Hi! I like the 4 day week offer for programmers, I presume they work longer hours on the previous 4 days, then go off and have a major rest each week? This sounds ideal, because only those who work long hours on PC’s know about the effects of burn-out and how it affects the thinking process and performance!
Any tips on this? How does it work?
I found my developer and I want to offer him a decent and different structure – the 4 day week sounds perfect!!!
CCH, I wouldn’t even go as far as making their days longer really – I good working day from around 9ish to 18h30ish, it’s long, but considering no work on Friday, I feel it’s fair. I think it’s a fabulous idea and one which I’m surprised hasn’t started happening?!
CCH: I know a company which has a lead developer and the lead developer works 3 weeks of the month and then takes one week off. I know another company which gives their developer a week off every 2 month period, this seems to work too.
I guess it’s all about how hard the developer works, perhaps a 3 month FULL TIME incubation period and based on performance, then incentivize with the 4 day week, what you think?
Wow, so many different concepts. I’ll make a few options then offer them to him and see what he chooses. I think it should be what he wants, what fits with his lifestyle.
Thanks, if you have any other suggestions for incentives let me know – the 4 day week and other options you suggested above are just made for developers I think.
Agreed, given choice is always a great incentive. I’ve just written another interesting post about working a 4 day week..
http://imod.co.za/index.php/2008/05/31/hiring-php-developers-outside-the-box/
I am a PHP developer / programmer…. and I can draw Beer out of anything! Thats how I’ve been tested.
CLS, do you have a portfolio of your work online? Familiar with WordPress?
Im mostly a systems developer, my work is in the background. WordPress… not really, depends whats needed. I do mostly API integration with 3rd party companies. Currently work for a major telecoms/ISP company.
Ah, some proper hands on dev stuff then, that’s awesome. API integration, oh the fun of doing that hey!
Yip… especially when that company changes stuff without telling anyone… then its real fun.
Any tips on some extra cash? I been scouting those freelancer sites for something I can automate :) but no luck.
Hows the weather down there in CT?
Changing things without telling you.. story of my life when I used to do a great deal of senior level development.
Tips on some extra cash.. not really sure which direction I’m meant to lead you here?
Weather is nasty, sheesh, lots of rain, crazy windows and generally cold :/ How things your side?
Well… as soon as I heard The Bulls won in Durbs, I could not care less about the cold :)
No worries.. was just curious if all this advertising actually pays off.
Talk about a blast from the past; comment notifications are great!
Well it’s been a year and nothing’s changed for me. Still looking for a permanent senior developer. Training up juniors has proved challenging but rewarding as they do start to turn a profit when up and running (takes 3 months or so). But there’s some stuff you just can’t train, where you actually need some major experience in the ranks.
Since last year, Flow (www.flowsa.com) has also opened a small office in Cape Town, so we do have an option there as well for any mid to senior PHP developers – richard@flowsa.com
@CLS – Ye mate, the advertising does pay off, but I work really really hard to keep my advertisers very happy :)
Hell ya @Richard, blast from the past indeed, that’s exactly what I thought when I got the notification!
Awesome awesome to hear how things have come along for you, that’s fantastic! Do you ever outsource any of the work anymore or are you managing to handle it all internally?
We use freelance senior developers when we don’t have the inhouse skills – a custom module here, a fancy integration there, etc.
I’d prefer to build my own team, but finding the right people is difficult. So maybe a formal partnership with a programming house might not be a bad idea.